In a Saturday telephone call, President Donald Trump urged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to overturn President-elect Joe Biden’s victory in the state. Trump spent much of the call angrily alleging voting fraud, ballot destruction and other charges, while Raffensperger rejected pressure to further investigate an election in which there has been no evidence of widespread fraud.
Below is a transcript of the Jan. 2 call:
Conference call with President Trump and Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger
• President Trump
• Brad Raffensperger, Secretary of State, State of Georgia
• Ryan Germany, General Counsel and Assistant Commissioner of Securities, State of Georgia
• Cleta Mitchell, partner, Foley & Lardner
• Jordan Fuchs, Deputy Secretary of State, State of Georgia
• Mark Meadows, White House chief of staff
• Kurt R. Hilbert, managing member and founder, the Hilbert Law Firm
Transcript by Superior Transcriptions LLC
RYAN GERMANY: He was here a second ago. This is Ryan Germany.
MARK MEADOWS: Mr. Germany, Ms. Fuchs –
MS. FUCHS: Hi.
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER: And Brad Raffensperger here.
MR. MEADOWS: OK. All right. So, Mr. President, everybody is on the line. And just so – this is Mark Meadows, the chief of staff. Just so we all are aware, on the line is the secretary of state and two other individuals, Jordan and Mr. Germany, with him. You also have the attorneys that represent the president – Kurt and Alex and Cleta Mitchell, who is not the attorney of record but has been involved – myself, and then the president. So, Mr. President, I’ll turn it over to you.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: OK. Thank you very much. Hello, Brad and Ryan and everybody. We appreciate the time and the call.
So we’ve spent a lot of time on this, and if we could just go over some of the numbers I think it’s pretty clear that we won. We won very substantially Georgia. You even see it by rally size, frankly. We’d be getting 25, 30,000 people a rally, and the competition would get less than a hundred people, and it never made sense.
But we have a number of things. We have at least two or three – anywhere from 250 to 300,000 ballots were dropped mysteriously into the rolls. Much of that had to do with Fulton County, which hasn’t been checked. We think that if you check the signatures, a real check of the signatures going back in Fulton County, you’ll find at least a couple of hundred thousand of forged signatures of people with – that – who have been forged. And we are quite sure that’s going to happen.
Another tremendous number – we’re going to have an accurate number over the next two days with certified accountants. But an accurate number will be given, but it’s in the fifties of thousands, and that’s people that went to vote and they were told they can’t vote because they’ve already been voted for. And it’s a very sad thing. They walked out complaining. But the number is large. We’ll have it for you, but it’s very – it’s much more than the number of 11,779 that’s – the current margin is only 11,779. Brad, I think – I think you agree with that, right?
That’s something I think everyone – (laughs) – at least that’s a number that everyone agrees on. But that’s the difference in the votes.
But we’ve had hundreds of thousands of ballots that we’re able to, actually – we’ll get you a pretty accurate number. You don’t need much of a number because the number that in theory I lost by, the margin would be 11,779. But you also have substantial numbers of people, thousands and thousands, who went to the voting place on November 3rd, were told they couldn’t vote – were told they couldn’t vote because a ballot had been put in on their name. And you know, that’s very, very…very, very sad.
We had I believe it’s about 4,502 voters who voted but who weren’t on the voter registration list. So it’s 4,502 who voted but they were not on the voter registration roll, which they had to be.
You had 18,325 vacant address voters. They had no – the address was vacant. And they’re not allowed to be counted. That’s 18,325.
A smaller number, you had 904 who only voted where they had just a PO, a post office box number. And they had a post office box number, and that’s not allowed.
We had at least 18,000 that’s on tape – we had them counted very painstakingly – 18,000 voters having to do with Ruby Freeman. She’s a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer and hustler, Ruby Freeman. That is – that was the tape that’s been shown all over the world that makes everybody look bad – you, me, and everybody else – where they got – number one, they said – they said very clearly and it’s been reported that they said there was a major water main break. Everybody fled the area. And then they came back – Ruby Freeman, her daughter, and a few people. There were no Republican poll watchers. Actually, there were no Democrat poll watchers. I guess they were them. But there were no Democrats, either. And there was no law enforcement. Late in the morning, they went – early in the morning, they went to the table with the black robe – the black shield and they pulled out the votes. Those votes were put there a number of hours before. The table was put there – I think it was – Brad, you would know. It was probably eight hours or seven hours before, and then it was stuffed with votes. They weren’t in an official voter box. They were in what looked to be suitcases or trunks – suitcases, but they weren’t in voter boxes. The minimum number it could be – because we watched it, and they watched it for certified in slow motion, instant replay if you can believe it. But it had slow motion and it was magnified many times over, and the minimum it was was 18,000 ballots, all for Biden.
You had out-of-state voters – they voted in Georgia, but they were from out of state – of 4,925.
You had absentee ballots sent to vacant – they were absentee ballots sent to vacant addresses. They had nothing on them about addresses. That’s 2,326.
And you had drop boxes, which is very bad. You had drop boxes that were picked up. We have photographs and we have affidavits from many people. I don’t know if you saw the hearings, but you have drop boxes where the box was picked up and not delivered for three days. So all sorts of things could have happened to that box, including, you know, putting in the votes that you wanted.
So there are many infractions. And the bottom line, it’s many, many times the 11,779 margin that they said we lost by. We had vast – I mean, you have – the state is in turmoil over this. And I know you would like to get to the bottom of it, although I saw you on television today and you said that you found nothing wrong. I mean, you know – and I didn’t lose the state, Brad.
People have been saying that it was the highest vote ever. There was no way – a lot of the political people said that there’s no way they beat me, and they beat me. They beat me in the – (inaudible 17:07) as you know, every single state – we won every state. We won every statehouse in the country. We held the Senate, which is shocking to people, although we’ll see what happens tomorrow or in a few days. And we won the House. But we won every single statehouse and we won Congress, which was supposed to lose 15 seats and they gained I think 16 or 17 or something. I think there’s now a difference of five. There was supposed to be a difference substantially more.
But politicians – in every state, but politicians in Georgia have been given affidavits and are going to that there was no way they beat me in the – in the election, that the people came out – in fact, they were expecting to lose and they ended up winning by a lot because of the coattails, and they said there’s no way – that they’ve done many polls prior to the election. There was no way that they won. Ballots were dropped in massive numbers, and we’re trying to get to those numbers, and we will have them. They’ll take a period of time, certified. But they’re massive numbers, and far greater than the 11,779.
The other thing, dead people. So dead people voted, and I think the number is in the – close to 5,000 people. And they went to obituaries, they went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number, and a minimum is close to about 5,000 voters.
The bottom line is when you add it all up, and then you start adding, you know, 300,000 fake ballots, then the other thing they said is in Fulton County and other areas – and this may or may not be true, this just came up this morning – that they are burning their ballots, that they are shredding, shredding ballots and removing equipment. They’re changing the equipment on the – on the Dominion machines. And you know, that’s not legal. And they supposedly shredded I think they said 300 pounds of – 3,000 pounds of ballots, and that just came to us as a report today. And you know, it’s – it’s a very sad situation.
But Brad, if you took – the minimum numbers were many, many times above the 11,779, and many of those numbers are certified, or they will be certified but they are certified. Those are numbers that are there, that exist, and that beat the margin – the margin of loss. It beat – they beat it, I mean, by a lot. And people should be happy to have an accurate count instead of an election where there’s turmoil. I mean, there’s turmoil in Georgia and other places. You’re not the only one. I mean, we have other states that I believe will be flipping to us very shortly.
But this is – this is something that’s – you know, as an example, I think in Detroit and I think there’s a section of – good section of your state, actually, which – we’re not sure, so we’re not going to report it yet. But in Detroit, we had I think it was 139 percent of the people voted. That’s not too good.
In Pennsylvania, they had well over 200,000 more votes than they had people voting, and that…that doesn’t play too well. And the legislature there is – which is Republican, is extremely activist and angry. But I mean, there were other things, also, that were almost as bad as that.
But they had an example in Michigan a tremendous number of dead people that voted. I think it was – I think, Mark, it was 18,000, some unbelievably high number, much higher than yours. You were – you were in the 4 to 5,000 category. And that was checked out laboriously by going through birth cert…by going through the obituary columns in the newspapers.
So I guess with all of it being said, Brad, it’s – the bottom line – and provisional ballots, again, you know, you’ll have to tell me about the provisional ballots. But we have a lot of people that were complaining that they weren’t able to vote because they were already voted for. And these are great people, and you know, they were shell shocked. I don’t know if you call that provisional ballots. In some states we had a lot of provisional ballot situations where people were given a provisional ballot because when they walked in on November 3rd they were already voting – voted for.
So that’s it. I mean, we have many, many times the number of votes necessary to win the state. And we won the state, and we won it very substantially and easily. And we’re getting – we have – much of this is very – you know, they’re certified. Far more are certified than we need, but we’re getting additional numbers certified, too. And we’re getting pictures of drop boxes being delivered and delivered late – delivered three days later, in some cases. Plus, we have many affidavits to that effect.
MR. MEADOWS: So, Mr. President, if I – if I might be able to jump in, and I’ll give Brad a chance, Mr. Secretary.
One, obviously, there is – there are allegations where we believe that not every vote or fair vote and legal vote was counted. That’s at odds with the representation from the secretary of state’s office.
What I’m hopeful for is, is there some way that we can – we can find some kind of an agreement to look at this a little bit more fully? You know, the president mentioned Fulton County, but in some of these areas where there seems to be a difference of where the facts seem to lead. And so, Mr. Secretary, I was hopeful that, you know, in a spirit of cooperation and compromise, is there something that we can at least have a discussion to look at some of these allegations to find a path forward that’s less litigious?
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Well, I’ve listened to what…the president has just said. President Trump, we’ve had several lawsuits, and we’ve had to respond in court to the lawsuits and the contentions. We don’t agree that you have won and we don’t – I didn’t agree about the 200,000 number that you mentioned. But I could go through that point by point.
What we had done is we gave out state senate about one-and-a-half hours of our time going through the election issue by issue. And then on the statehouse, the Government Affairs Committee, we gave them about two-and-a-half hours of our time going back point by point on all the issues of contention. And then just a few days ago we met with our U.S. congressmen, Republican congressmen, and we gave them about two hours of our time talking about this past election.
Going back, primarily what you’re – what you’ve talked about here, focused in on primarily, I believe, is the absentee ballot process. I don’t believe that you’re really questioning the Dominion machines because we did a hand re-tally, a 100 percent re-tally of all the ballots and compared that to what the machine said, and it came up with virtually the same result. Then we did the recount and we got virtually the same result. So I guess we could probably take that off the table. I don’t think there’s an issue about that.
I think what you’re –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, Brad – Brad, not that there’s not an issue, but – because I – we have a big issue with Dominion in other states and perhaps in yours, but we haven’t felt we needed to go there. And just to, you know, maybe put a little different spin on what Mark is saying – Mark Meadows – yeah, we’d like to go further, but we don’t really need to. We have all the votes we need. You know, we won the state.
If you took – these are the most minimal numbers, the numbers that I gave you. Those are numbers that are certified: your absentee ballots sent to vacant addresses; your out-of-state voters, 4,925. You know, when you add them up, it’s many more – it’s many times the 11,779 number.
So we could go through – we have not gone through your Dominion, so we can’t give them blessing. I mean, in other states we think we found tremendous corruption with Dominion machines, but we’ll have to see.
But we only lost the state by – by that number, 11,000 votes, and – 779. So with that being said, with just what we have and – you know, with just what we have, we’re giving you minimum – minimum numbers. We’re doing the most conservative numbers possible. We’re many times – many, many times above the margin. And so we don’t really have to – Mark, I don’t think we have to go through machines because –
MR. MEADOWS: Right. Right.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: – because what’s the difference between winning the election by two votes and winning it by a half-a-million votes?
MR. MEADOWS: Right.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: I think we probably did win it by a half a – you know, one of the things that happened, Brad, is we have other people coming in now from Alabama and from South Carolina and from other states, and they’re saying it’s impossible for you to have lost Georgia. We won – you know, in Alabama we set a record, got the highest vote ever. In Georgia we set a record with a massive amount of votes. And they say it’s not possible to have lost Georgia. And I could tell you by our rallies. I could tell you by the rally I’m having on Monday night. The place, they already have lines of people standing out front waiting. It’s just not possible to have lost Georgia. It’s not possible.
When I heard it was close, I said there’s no way. But they dropped a lot of votes in there late at night. You know that, Brad. And that’s what we are working on very, very stringently. But regardless of those votes, with all of it being said, we lost by essentially 11,000 votes, and we have many more votes already calculated, and certified too. So I just don’t know – you know, Mark, I don’t know what’s the purpose – I won’t give Dominion a pass because we found too many bad things, but we don’t need Dominion or anything else. We have – we have – we have won this election in Georgia based on all of this.
And there’s nothing wrong with saying that, Brad. You know, I mean, having the – having a correct – the people of Georgia are angry. And these numbers are going to be repeated on Monday night, along with others that we’re going to have by that time, which are much more substantial, even. And the people of Georgia are angry. The people of the country are angry. And there’s nothing wrong with saying that – you know, that you’ve recalculated because the 2,236 on absentee ballots, I mean, they’re all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms, law firms, et cetera. And even if you cut them in half, cut them in half, and cut them in half again, it’s more votes than we need.
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong. We talked to the congressmen and they were surprised, but they – I guess there was a person named Mr. Braynard that came to these meetings and presented data. And he said that there was dead people – I believe it was upward of 5,000. The actual number were two – two. Two people that were dead that voted. And so that’s wrong. That was two.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, Cleta, how do you respond to that? I mean, you tell me.
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Because –
CLETA MITCHELL: I will say, Mr. Secretary, one of the things that we have requested – and we – what we said was, and if you look at – if you read our petition, it said that we took the names and birth years, and you know, we had certain information available to us. We have asked from your office for records that only you have. And so we said there’s a universe of people who have the same name and same birth year and died, but we don’t have the records that you have. And one of the things that we have been suggesting formally and informally for weeks now is to try – is for you to make available to us the records that would be necessary to confirm – (inaudible 30:46) –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But Cleta, even before you do that –
MS. MITCHELL: – that standing. That’s a –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Cleta, even before you do that, and not even including – that’s why I hardly even included that number – although in one state we have a tremendous amount of dead people, so I don’t know. I’m sure we do in Georgia, too. I’m sure we do in Georgia, too. But is that we’re so far ahead – we’re so far ahead of these numbers, even the phony ballots of Ruby Freeman – known scammer. You know the internet? You know what was trending on the internet? “Where’s Ruby,” because they thought she would be in jail. “Where’s Ruby.” It’s crazy. It’s crazy.
That was – the minimum number is 18,000 for Ruby, but they think it’s probably about 56,000. But the minimum number is 18,000 on the Ruby Freeman night where she ran back in there when everybody was gone and stuffed – she stuffed the ballot boxes. Let’s face it, Brad. I mean, they did it in slow-motion replay magnified, right? She stuffed the ballot boxes. They were stuffed like nobody’s ever seen them stuffed before. So there’s a term for it when it’s a machine instead of a ballot box, but she stuffed the machines. She stuffed the ballot – each ballot went three times. They were showing here’s ballot number one, here it is a second, third time, next ballot.
I mean, look, Brad, this is – we have – we have a new tape that we’re going to release. It’s devastating.
And by the way, that one event – that one event is much more than the 11,000 votes that we’re talking about. It’s – you know, that one event was a disaster. It just – you know, but it was – it was something that – it can’t be disputed. And again, we have a version that you haven’t seen, but it’s magnified. It’s magnified, and you can see everything. And she put – for some reason, they put it in three times, each ballot. And I don’t know why, but you know, why – I don’t know why three times. Why not five times, right? But – yeah, go ahead.
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: You’re talking about the State Farm video. And I think it’s extremely unfortunate that Rudy Giuliani or his people, they sliced and diced that video and took it out of context. So the next day we brought in WSB-TV and we let them show – see the full run of tape. I mean, what you’ll see, the events that transpired are nowhere near what was projected by, you know –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But where were the poll watchers, Brad? There were no poll watchers there. There were no Democrats or Republicans. There was no security there. It was late in the evening or late in the – early in the morning, and there was nobody else in the room. Where were the poll watchers? And why did they say a watermain broke – which they did – and which is reported in the newspapers? They said they left – they ran out because of a watermain break. And there was no watermain. There was nothing. There was no break. There was no watermain break. But where – if you – if you take out everything, where were the Republican poll watchers – even where were the Democrat poll watchers – because there were none.
And then you say, well, they left their station. You know, if you look at the tape – and this was – it – this was reviewed by professional police and detectives and other people – when they left in a rush – everybody left in a rush because of the watermain – but everybody left in a rush, these people left their station. When they came back, they didn’t go to their station. They went to the apron wrapped around the table, under which were thousands and thousands of ballots in a box that was not an official or a sealed box, and then they took those, and they went back to a different station. So if they would have come back, they would have walked to their station and they would have continued to work. But they couldn’t do even that, because that’s illegal because they had no Republican poll watchers.
And remember, her reputation is – she’s known all over the internet, Brad. She’s known all over. I’m telling you, “Where’s Ruby” was one of the hot items – Ruby, they knew her. “Where’s Ruby.” So, Brad, you know, there can be no justification for that. And, you know, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but that was – and, Brad, why did they put the votes in three times? You know, they put them in three times.
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Mr. President, they did not put that – we did an audit of that, and we’ve proved conclusively that they were not scanned three times.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, where was everybody else at that late time in the morning? Where was everybody? Where were the Republicans? Where were the security guards? Where were the people that were there just a little while before when everyone ran out of the room? How come – how come we had no security in the room? Why did they run to the bottom of the table? Why did they run there and just open the skirt and rip out the – and rip out the votes? I mean, Brad – and they were sitting there – I think for five hours or something like that, the votes – but they just all happened to run back and go – you know, Brad –
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Yeah, Mr. President, we’ll send you the link from WSB that does the –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: I don’t care about a link. I don’t need it. I have a much – Brad, I have a much better link.
MS. MITCHELL: I have – Mr. President and Mr. Secretary, I will tell you, I’ve seen the tape, the full tape. So has Alex. We’ve watched it. And what we saw and what we’ve confirmed in the timing is that they made everybody leave – we have sworn affidavits saying that – and then they – then they began to process ballots. And our estimate is that there were roughly 18,000 ballots. We don’t know that. If you know that, we’d like to know the answer.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: It was 18,000 ballots, but they used each one three times. So it was the –
MS. MITCHELL: Well, I don’t know about that, but I – what I do know –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yeah. Well, I do, because we had – we had ours magnified out. So each one magnified out is 18 times three, but –
MS. MITCHELL: I’ve watched the entire tape.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But – you know, but nobody can make a case for that, Brad. Nobody. I mean, look, that’s – you’d have to be a child to think anything other than that. Just a child. I mean, you have your Never Trumper U.S. attorney there.
MS. MITCHELL: How many ballots – how many ballots, Mr. Secretary, are you saying that Ruby was processing?
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: We had GBI, certainly, investigate that.
MR. GERMANY: We had our – this is Ryan Germany. We had our law enforcement officers talk to everyone who was – who was there after that event came to light. They GBI was with them, as well as FBI agents.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, there’s no way they could – then they’re incompetent. They’re either dishonest or incompetent, OK? There’s only two answers: dishonesty or incompetence. There’s just no way. Look, there’s no way. And on the other thing that I said, too, there’s no way – I mean, there’s no way that these things could have been – you know, you have all these different people that voted but they don’t live in Georgia anymore. What was that number, Cleta? That was a pretty good number, too.
MS. MITCHELL: Well, the number who had registered out of state after they moved from Georgia – and so they had a date when they moved from Georgia, they registered to vote out of state, and then they – it’s like 4,500. I don’t have that right in front of me. It’s something like that.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: And then they came back in and they voted.
MS. MITCHELL: And voted, yeah.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: That was a large number, though. It was in the 20s. And you know, the point is –
MR. GERMANY: We’ve been going through each of those as well. And those numbers that we got, that Ms. Mitchell was just saying, they’re not accurate. Everyone we’ve been through are people that lived in Georgia, moved to a different state, but then moved back to Georgia legitimately. And in – and in many cases – (inaudible 38:45) – so far.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Really? How many people do that? You mean they moved out and then they said, ah, all the hell with it, I’ll move back in? You know, it doesn’t sound like a very normal – like you mean they moved out, and, what, they missed it so much that they wanted to move back in? You know, it’s like – (laughs) – it’s crazy.
MR. GERMANY: Well, and then this is they moved back in years ago. This was not like something just before the election. So there’s something about that data that is just not accurate.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, I don’t know. We – I mean, all I know is that it is – it is certified. And they moved out of Georgia, and they voted. It didn’t say they moved back in, Cleta, did it?
MS. MITCHELL: No, but, I mean, we’re looking at the voter registry. Again, if you have additional records, we’ve been asking for that, but you haven’t shared any of that with us. You just keep saying you’ve investigated the allegations.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But, Cleta, a lot of if you don’t need to be shared. I mean, to be honest, they should share it. They should share it because you want to get to an honest election. I won this election by hundreds of thousands of votes. There’s no way I lost Georgia. There’s no way. We won by hundreds of thousands of votes. I’m just going by small numbers, when you add them up, they’re many times the 11,000. But I won that state by hundreds of thousands of votes.
Now, do you think it’s possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that’s what the rumor is. And also, that Dominion took out machines, that Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their machinery? Do you know anything about that? Because that’s illegal.
MR. GERMANY: This is Ryan Germany. No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County. We’re having an election on Tuesday.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, but – no, but have they moved – have they – have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?
MR. GERMANY: No.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Are you sure, Ryan?
MR. GERMANY: I’m sure. I’m sure, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: And what about – what about the – what about the ballots, the shredding of the ballots? Have they been shredding ballots?
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: No.
MR. GERMANY: The only investigation that we have into that, they have not been shredding any ballots. There was an issue in Cobb County where they were doing normal, you know, office shredding, getting rid of old stuff, and we investigated that. But this is stuff from, you know, past elections. And that’s – and that’s what it turned out to be.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: I don’t know about that. It’s very – it doesn’t pass the smell test, though, because we hear they’re shredding thousands and thousands of ballots. And now what they’re saying, oh, we’re just cleaning up the office. (Laughs.) You know, I don’t think they’re –
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Well, Mr. President, the problem that you have with social media, they can – people can say anything.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, no, this isn’t social. This is Trump media. It’s not social media. It’s really not. It’s not social media. I don’t care about social. I couldn’t care less. Social media is big tech. Big tech is on your side, you know? I don’t even know why you have a side, because you should want to have an accurate election. And you’re a Republican.
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: We believe that we do have an accurate election.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, I – no, you don’t. No. No, you don’t. You don’t have – you don’t have – not even close. You got – you’re off by hundreds of thousands of votes. And just on the small numbers, you’re off on these numbers.
And these numbers can’t be – well, why won’t – OK, so you send us into Cobb County for signature verification, right? You send us into Cobb County, which we didn’t want to go into, and you said it would be open to the public and we could have our – so we had our experts there. They weren’t allowed into the room. But we didn’t want Cobb County. We wanted Fulton County, and you wouldn’t give it to us. Now why aren’t we doing signature – and why can’t it be open to the public? And why can’t we have professionals do it instead of rank amateurs that will never find anything and don’t want to find anything? They don’t want to find – you know they don’t want to find anything. Someday you’ll tell me the reason why, because I don’t understand your reasoning. But someday you’ll tell me the reason why. But why don’t you want to find –
MR. GERMANY: Mr. President, we chose Cobb County – we chose Cobb County –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Why don’t you want to find – what?
MR. GERMANY: Sorry, go ahead.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Yeah, why did – why – OK, so why did you do Cobb County? We didn’t even – we requested Fulton County, not Cobb County.
MS. MITCHELL: Well, Mr. President, we do have – (inaudible) –
MR. GERMANY: We chose Cobb County –
MS. MITCHELL: – Cobb County.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Go ahead, please.
MR. GERMANY: We chose Cobb County because that was the only county where there’s been any evidence submitted that the signature verification was not properly done –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, but I told you, but we’re not – we’re not saying that. We are the aggrieved –
MS. MITCHELL: No, we did say that. We did say that.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: – we’re the aggrieved party.
Fulton County – look, Stacey – in my opinion, Stacey is as dishonest as they come. She has outplayed you at every – at everything. She got you to sign a totally unconstitutional agreement which is a disastrous agreement. You can’t check signatures, you can’t do – I can’t imagine – you’re allowed to do harvesting, I guess, in that – that agreement is a disaster for this country.
But she got you somehow to sign that thing, and she is a – she has outsmarted you at every step. And I hate to imagine what’s going to happen on Monday or Tuesday, but it’s very scary to people, you know – where the ballots flow in out of nowhere. It’s very scary to people.
That consent decree is a disaster. It’s a disaster. A very good lawyer who examined it said they’d never seen anything like it. And –
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Ballot harvesting is still illegal in the state of Georgia, and that settlement agreement did not change that one iota.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, it’s not a settlement agreement; it’s a consent decree. It even says consent decree on it, doesn’t it? It uses the term consent decree. It doesn’t say settlement agreement; it’s a consent decree. It’s a disaster.
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: It’s a settlement agreement.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: What’s written on top of it?
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Ryan?
MR. GERMANY: I don’t – I don’t have it in front of me, but it was not entered by the court. It’s not a court order. It’s an order –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, it’s called – but Ryan, it’s called a consent decree. Is that right – on the paper? Is that right?
MR. GERMANY: I don’t – I don’t – I don’t believe so, but I don’t – I don’t have it in front of me.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: OK, OK. Whatever, it’s a disaster. It’s a disaster.
Look, here’s the problem. We could go through signature verification, and we’ll find hundreds of signatures – if you let us do it – and the only way you can do it, as you know, is to go to the past. But you didn’t do that in Cobb County. You just looked at one page compared to another. The only way you can do a signature verification is go from the one that signed it on November whatever – recently – and compare it to two years ago, four years ago, six years ago – you know, or even one. And you will find that you have many different signatures.
But in Fulton, where they dumped ballots, you will find that you have many that aren’t even signed, and you have many that are forgeries, OK? You know that. You know that. You have no doubt about that.
And you will find – you will be at 11,779 within minutes because Fulton County is totally corrupt and so is she totally corrupt. And they’re going around playing you and laughing at you behind your back, Brad. Whether you know it or not, they’re laughing at you. And you’ve taken a state that’s a Republican state and you’ve made it almost impossible for a Republican to win because of cheating, because they cheated like nobody has ever cheated before.
And I don’t care how long it takes me – you know, we’re going to have other states coming forward pretty good, but I won’t – this has never given – this is – we have some incredible talent who’ve said they’ve never seen anything – now the problem is they need more time for the big numbers, but they are very substantial numbers. But…and I think you are going to find that they – by the way, a little information. I think you are going to find that they are shredding ballots because they have to get rid of the ballots because the ballots are unsigned, the ballots are corrupt. And they are brand new, and they don’t have seals, and there’s a whole thing with the ballots. But the ballots are corrupt. And you are going to find that they are – which is totally illegal. It’s more illegal for you than it is for them because you know what they did and you’re not reporting it. That’s a – you know, that’s a criminal – that’s a criminal offense. And, you know, you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan – you’re lawyers; that a big risk.
But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I’ve heard, and they are removing machinery, and they’re moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal fines, and you can’t let it happen, and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I’m notifying you that you are letting it happen.
So, look –
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Well, we’re –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: – all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state, and flipping the state is a great testament to our country because, you know, there’s just – it’s a testament that they can admit to a mistake – or whatever you want to call it – if it was a mistake. I don’t know.
A lot of people think it wasn’t a mistake; it was much more criminal than that. But it’s a big problem in Georgia, and it’s not a problem that’s going away. I mean, you know, it’s not a problem that’s going away. And we’ve got to –
MR. GERMANY: Mr. President, this is Ryan. We’re looking into every one of those things that you mentioned.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: OK, then good.
MR. GERMANY: And our investigators, I know them. I know our friends at GBI.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But if you find them, you’ve got to say it, Ryan. Look, if they – let me ask you – Ryan, if they are destroying ballots –
MR. GERMANY: We will. But let me tell you what – let me tell you what we are seeing.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Go ahead. Go ahead.
MR. GERMANY: What we’re seeing is not at all what you are describing. And these are investigators from our office. These are investigators from GBI, and they’re looking, and they are good. And that’s not what they’re seeing. And we’ll keep – we’ll keep looking. We’ll keep looking at all of these things. But what we are seeing –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, you’d better check on the ballots because they are shredding ballots, Ryan. I’m just telling you, Ryan. They are shredding ballots, and you should look at that very carefully because that’s still illegal, you know. You may not even believe it because it’s so bad, but they’re shredding ballots because they think we’re going to eventually get there because we’ll eventually get into Fulton, you know?
In my opinion it’s never too late. In my opinion it’s never too late. So – oh, a little double – a little double sound there.
So that’s the story, fellows. Look, we need only 11,000 votes. We have far more than that as it stands now. We’ll have more and more, and – do you have provisional ballots at all, Brad? Provisional ballots?
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Provisional ballots are allowed, you know, by state law.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Sure. But do you have them? I mean, are they counted or did you just hold them back because they, you know – in other words, how many provisional ballots do you have in the state?
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: We’ll get you that number.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Because most of them are made out to the name Trump because these are people that were scammed when they came in, and we have thousands of people that have testified or that want to testify. When they came in, they were proudly going to vote on November 3rd, and they were told, I’m sorry, you’ve already been voted for – you’ve already voted. The women, men started screaming, no, I proudly voted to November 3rd. They said, I’m sorry, but you’ve already been voted for, and you have a ballot.
And these people are beside themselves. So they went out and they filled in a provisional ballot, putting the name Trump on it.
And what about that batch of military ballots that came in, and even though I won the military by a lot, it was a hundred percent Trump – I mean, a hundred percent Biden. Do you know about that?
A large group of ballots came – I think it was to Fulton County, and they just happened to be a hundred percent for Trump, even though – for Biden, even though Trump won the military by a lot – you know, a tremendous amount.
But these ballots were a hundred percent for Biden. And do you know about that? A very substantial number came in, all for Biden. (Pause.) Does anybody know about it?
MR. GERMANY: This is Ryan Germany. I –
MS. MITCHELL: I know about it, but we were never –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: OK, Cleta, wait. I’m not asking you, Cleta, honestly. I’m asking – I’m asking Brad. Do you know about the military ballots that we have confirmed now? Do you know about the military ballots that came in that were a hundred percent – I mean, a hundred percent for Biden? Do you know about that?
MR. GERMANY: I don’t know about that. I do know that we have – when military ballots come in, it’s not just military. It’s also military and overseas citizens. The military part of that does generally go Republican. The overseas citizen part of it generally goes very Democrat. So – (inaudible) – a mix of them.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, but this was – yeah, that’s OK. But I get – I got like 78 percent in the military. These ballots were all for – they were – they didn’t tell me, obviously, these could be overseas, too, but I get votes overseas, too, Ryan, you know, in all fairness.
No, they came in – a large batch came in and it was, quote, “100 percent for Biden.” And that is criminal – you know, that’s criminal, OK? That’s another criminal – that’s another of the many criminal events. Many criminal events here.
I don’t know. Look Brad, I got to get – I have to find 12,000 votes and I have them times a lot. And therefore, I won the state. That’s before we go to the next step which is in the process of right now, you know, and I watched you this morning, and you said, well, there was no criminality. But, I mean, all of this stuff is very dangerous stuff. When you talk about no criminality, I think it’s very dangerous for you to say that.
I just – I just don’t know why you don’t want to have the votes counted as they are – like even you, when you went and did that check. And I was surprised because, you know, I didn’t consider the check. And we found a few thousand votes that were against me. I was actually surprised because the way that check was done, all you were doing is, you know, recertifying existing votes and, you know, you were given votes, and you just counted them up, and you still found 3,000 that were bad. That was sort of surprising that came down – three or five, I don’t know. It was still a lot of votes.
But you have to go back to check from past years with respect to signatures. And if you check with Fulton County, you’ll have hundreds of thousands because they dumped ballots into Fulton County and the other county next to it.
So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes; give me a break. You know, we have that in spades already, or we could keep it going, but that’s not fair to the voters of Georgia because they’re going to see what happened and – they’re going to see what happened.
I mean, I’ll take on anybody you want with regard to Ruby Freeman and her lovely daughter – a very lovely young lady, I’m sure. But Ruby Freeman – I will take Freeman. I will take on anybody you want.
And the minimum – there were 18,000 ballots but they used them three times. So that’s, you know, a lot of votes. And that one event – and they were all to Biden, by the way; that’s the other thing we didn’t say. You know, Ruby Freeman, one thing I forgot to say which was the most important. Do you know that every single ballot she did went to Biden? You know that, right? Do you know that, by the way, Brad? Every single ballot that she did through the machines at early – early in the morning went to Biden. Did you know that, Ryan?
MR. GERMANY: That’s not accurate, Mr. President.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Huh. What is accurate?
MR. GERMANY: The numbers that we are showing are accurate. We picked – we picked –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No. No. About Ruby Freeman. About early in the morning, Ryan, when the woman took – you know, when the whole gang took the stuff out of the – from under the table, right, do you know that – do you know who those ballots – do you know who they were made out to? Do you know who they were voting for?
MR. GERMANY: No, not specifically.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Did you ever check?
MR. GERMANY: We did what I described to you earlier.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, no, no. Did you ever check the ballots that were scammed by Ruby Freeman, known – a known political operative, ballotteer? Did you ever check who those votes were for?
MR. GERMANY: We’ve looked into that situation that you described –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, they were 100 percent for Biden. One hundred percent. There wasn’t a Trump vote in the whole group. Why don’t you want to find this, Ryan? What’s wrong with you? I heard – I heard your lawyer is very difficult, actually, but I’m sure you’re a good lawyer. You have a nice last name.
But I’m just curious, why wouldn’t – why do you keep fighting this thing? It just doesn’t make sense. We’re way over the 17,779, right. We’re way over that number, and just if you took just Ruby Freeman we’re over that number by five or six times when you multiply it out times three, and every single ballot went to Biden. And you didn’t know that but now you know it.
So tell me, Brad, what are we going to do? We won the election and it’s not fair to take it away from us like this, and it’s going to be very costly in many ways and I think you have to say that you’re going to reexamine it and you can reexamine it, but reexamine it with people that want to find answers, not people that don’t want to find answers.
For instance, I’m hearing Ryan and he’s probably, I’m sure, a great lawyer and everything but he’s making statements about those ballots that he doesn’t know. But he’s making them with such – he did make them with surety but now I think he’s less sure because the answer is they all went to Biden and that alone wins us the election by a lot, you know. So –
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Mr. President, you have people that submit information and we have our people that submit information, and then it comes before the court and the court then has to make a determination. We have to stand by our numbers. We believe our numbers are right.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But why do you say that, though? I don’t know – I mean, sure, we can play this game with the courts. But why do you say that? First of all, they don’t even assign us a judge. They don’t even assign us a judge. But why wouldn’t you – if – hey, Brad, why wouldn’t you want to check out Ruby Freeman and why wouldn’t you want to say, hey, if in fact President Trump is right about that then he wins the state of Georgia? Just that one incident alone, without going through hundreds of thousands of dropped ballots. You just say you stick by – I mean, I’ve been watching you for – you know, you don’t care about anything. Your numbers are right. But your numbers aren’t right. They’re really wrong and they’re really wrong, Brad. And I know this phone call is going nowhere other than – other than, ultimately, you know – look, ultimately, I win, OK, because –
MS. MITCHELL: Mr. Secretary, Mr. President –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: – you guys are so wrong and you’ve treated this – you’ve treated the population of Georgia so badly, between you and your governor, who wouldn’t – who was down at 21 – he was down 21 points and, like a schmuck, I endorsed him and he got elected. But I will tell you, he’s a disaster and he’ll never – I can’t imagine. The people are so angry in Georgia I can’t imagine he’s ever getting elected again, I’ll tell you that much right now. But why wouldn’t you want to find the right answer, Brad, instead of keep saying that the numbers are right? Because those numbers are so wrong and –
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Mr. President, please –
MS. MITCHELL: Mr. Secretary, Mr. President, I mean, one of the things that we have been – Alex can talk about this, we’ve talked about it, and I don’t know whether the information has been conveyed to your office. But I think what the president is saying and what we have been trying to do is to say, look, the court is not acting on our petition. They haven’t even assigned a judge. But the people of Georgia and the people of America have a right to know the answers. And you have data and records that we don’t have access to and you keep telling us and making public statements that you’ve investigated this and, you know, nothing to see here. But we don’t know about that.
All we know is what you tell us. What I don’t understand is why wouldn’t it be in everyone’s best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers? You know, if you say – because to try to be able to get to truth and that we – because we don’t have any way of confirming what you’re telling us.
You tell us that you’ve had an investigation of the State Farm Arena. I don’t have any report. I’ve never seen a report of investigation. I don’t know what that is. I’ve been pretty involved in this and I don’t know. And that’s just one of 25 categories and it doesn’t even – and as I – as the president said, we haven’t even gotten into the Dominion issue. That’s not part of our case. It’s not part of – we just didn’t feel as though we had any way to be able to develop –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: No, we do have a way but I don’t want to get into it –
MS. MITCHELL: Exactly.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: – because we have – we found a way in other states – Cleta, excuse me. But we don’t need it –
MS. MITCHELL: Right.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: – because we’re only down 11,000 votes, so we don’t even need it.
MS. MITCHELL: Right. But all I’m saying is – (inaudible) – not get a commitment.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: I, personally, think they’re corrupt as hell. But we don’t need that because all we have to do, Cleta, is find 11,000-plus votes. So we don’t need that. I’m not looking to shake up the whole world. We won Georgia easily. We won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But if you go by basic simple numbers we won it easily. Easily. So we’re not giving Dominion a pass, on the record. I will say that.
MS. MITCHELL: No, right. Exactly. We don’t need it. We don’t need it.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But we just don’t – you know, we don’t need Dominion because we have so many other votes that we don’t need to prove it any more than we already have.
MS. MITCHELL: So my –
KURT HILBERT: Mr. President and Cleta, this is Kurt Hilbert. If I might interject here for a moment.
Ryan, I would like to suggest that just four categories that have already been mentioned by the president that have actually hard numbers of 24,149 votes that were counted illegally. That in and of itself is sufficient to change the results or place the outcome in doubt. We would like to sit down with your office, and we can do it through purposes of a compromise and settlement, just like this phone call, just to deal with that limited category of votes. And if you are able to establish that our numbers are not accurate, then fine. However, we believe that they are accurate. We’ve had now three to four separate experts look at these numbers. These numbers are based upon the USPS –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: And certified accountants looked at them.
MR. HILBERT: Correct. And this is just based on USPS data and your own secretary of state data. So that’s what we would entreat and ask you to do, to sit down with us in a compromise and settlement, you know, proceeding and actually go through the registered voter IDs and the registrations, and if you can convince us that that 24,149 is inaccurate, then fine. But we tend to believe that that is, you know, obviously, more than 11,779 that’s sufficient to change the result entirely in and of itself. So what would you say to that, Mr. Germany?
MR. GERMANY: Kurt, I’m happy to – I’ll get with our lawyers and we’ll set that up. That number is not accurate and I think we can show you for all the ones we’ve looked at why it’s not. And so if that would be helpful, I’m happy to get with our lawyers and set that up with you guys.
MS. MITCHELL: Well, we’d love to, right away.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, let me ask you, Kurt – Kurt, do you think that is an accurate number? That was based on the information given to you by the secretary of state’s department, right?
MR. HILBERT: That is correct. That information is the minimum, most conservative data based upon the USPS data and the secretary of state’s office data that has been made publicly available. We do not have the internal numbers from the secretary of state. Yet, we have asked for it six times. I sent a letter over to Mr. (inaudible 1:05:10) several times requesting this information and it’s been rebuffed every single time. So it stands to reason that if the information is not forthcoming there’s something to hide. That’s the problem that we have.
MR. GERMANY: Well, that’s not the case. There are things that you guys are entitled to get and there’s things that, under law, we are not allowed to give out to you. That’s –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, you have to. Well, under law, you’re not allowed to give faulty election results, OK? You’re not allowed to do that and that’s what you’ve done. This is a faulty election result and, honestly, this should go very fast. You should meet tomorrow because you have a big election coming up and because of what you’ve done to the president. You know, the people of Georgia know that this was a scam and because of what you’ve done to the president a lot of people aren’t going out to vote and a lot of Republicans are going to vote negative because they hate what you did to the president, OK. They hate him and they’re going to vote, and you would be respected, really respected, if this thing could be straightened out before the election.
You have a big election coming up on Tuesday and, therefore, I think that it really is important that you meet tomorrow and work out on these numbers because I know, Brad, that if you think we’re right I think you’re going to say – and I’m not looking to blame anybody. I’m not – I’m just saying that, you know – you know, under new counts and under new views of the election results we won the election. It’s all – you know, it’s very simple. We won the election.
As the governor of major states and the surrounding states said, there’s no way you lost Georgia. As the Georgia politicians say, there is no way you lost Georgia. Nobody – everyone knows I won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But I’ll tell you, it’s going to have a big impact on Tuesday if you guys don’t get this thing straightened out fast.
MR. MEADOWS: Well, Mr. President, this is Mark. Let me – let me just – it sounds like we’ve got two different sides agreeing that we can look at those areas, and I assume that we can do that within the next 24 to 48 hours to go ahead and get that reconciled so that we can look at the two claims and making sure that we get the access to the secretary of state’s data to either validate or invalidate the claims that have been made. Is that correct?
MR. GERMANY: No, that’s not what I said. I’m happy to, you know, sit down with or have our lawyers sit down with Kurt and the lawyers on that side and explain to him, hey, here’s – based on what we’ve looked at so far, here’s how we know this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. And we –
MR. MEADOWS: So what you’re saying, Ryan – hold on. Let me – let me make sure. So what you’re saying is you really don’t want to give access to the data. You just want to make another case on why the lawsuit is wrong?
MR. GERMANY: I don’t think we – I don’t think we can give access to data that’s protected by law. But we can sit down with them and say, hey, we’re looking at –
PRESIDENT TRUMP: But you’re allowed to have a phony election? You’re allowed to have a phony election, right?
MR. GERMANY: No, sir.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: When are you – when are you going to do the signature counts on – when are you going to do signature verification on Fulton County, which you said you were going to do and now all of a sudden you’re not doing it? When are you doing that?
MR. HILBERT: Mr. President?
MR. GERMANY: We are going to do that. We have announced –
MR. HILBERT: To get to this issue of the personal information and privacy issue, is it possible that the secretary of state could deputize the lawyers for the president so that we could access that information, that private information, without you having any kind of violation?
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, I don’t want to know who it is. You guys can do it very confidentially. You can sign a confidentiality agreement. That’s OK. I don’t need to know names.
MR. MEADOWS: All right. Let me – yeah.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: We’ve got – but we got the information. On this stuff that we’re talking about, we got all that information from the secretary of state.
MR. MEADOWS: Yes. So let me – let me recommend, Ryan, if you and Kurt will get together – you know, when we get off of this phone call if you could get together and work out a plan to address some of what we’ve got with your attorneys where we can – we can actually look at the data.
For example, Mr. Secretary, I can tell you, you said there was only two dead people that would vote. I can promise you there are more than that, and that may be what your investigation shows but I can promise you there are more than that.
But at the same time, I think it’s important that we go ahead and move expeditiously to try to do this and resolve it as quickly as we possibly can, and if that’s the good next step, hopefully, we can – we can finish this phone call and go ahead and agree that the two of you will get together immediately.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, why don’t my lawyers show you where you got the information? It’ll show the secretary of state and you don’t even have to look at any names. We don’t want names. We don’t care. But we got that information from you. And Stacey Abrams is laughing about it. You know, she’s going around saying, these guys are dumber than a rock. What she’s done to this party is unbelievable, I tell you. And I only ran against her once and that was with a guy named Brian Kemp, and I beat her, and if I didn’t run Brian wouldn’t have had even a shot either in the general or in the primary. He was dead, dead as a doornail. He never thought he had a shot at either one of them. What a schmuck I was. But that’s the way it is. That’s the way it is.
I would like you to – for the attorneys on my side, I’d like you to perhaps meet with Ryan, ideally tomorrow, because I think we should come to a resolution of this before the election. Otherwise, you’re going to have – you’re going to have people just not voting. They don’t want to vote. They hate the state, they hate the governor, and they hate the secretary of state. I will tell you that right now. And the only people that like you are people that will never vote for you. You know that, Brad, right? They like you. You know, they like you. They can’t believe what they’ve found. They want more people like you.
So, look, could you get together tomorrow? And, Brad, we just want the truth. It’s simple, and everyone’s going to look very good if the truth comes out. It’s OK. It’ll take a little while. But let the truth come out, and the truth – the real truth is I won by 400,000 votes at least. That’s the real truth. But we don’t need 400,000 votes. We need less than 2,000 votes. And, you know, are you guys able to meet tomorrow, Ryan?
MR. GERMANY: I’ll get with Chris, the lawyer who’s representing us in the case, and see when he can get together with Kurt.
MR. MEADOWS: All right.
MR. RAFFENSPERGER: Ryan will be in touch with the other attorney on this call, Mr. Meadows. Thank you, President Trump, for your time.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: OK. Thank you, Brad. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you. Thank you, everybody.
MR. MEADOWS: Thank you.
MS. MITCHELL: Thank you.
PRESIDENT TRUMP: Thank you very much. Bye.
MR. GERMANY: Mr. President.
(END OF CALL)
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